General Lloyd on 21 Dec 2006 07:30 pm
A few thoughts on Zulu/African martial arts
Hi all.
I’ve been searching the net for references on African martial arts, out of idle curiosity more than anything specific - but what I found seems to do a disservice to the subject. I believe I may well end up deleting this post, for the reasons that it may be controversial in some of the views I will express, and that I may want to go back and do more research.
I’m African. I was born and raised in Africa. There are 54 African countries. There is however, no strong African voice on the subject of African martial arts traditions. But that’s okay, Africa is a HUGE continent. There should be many voices. But how come all the African experts are American?
One organisation that may carry weight is the De-Bordes Foundation, however this is not an endorsement of them. I’ve only recently heard of them and know of no locals who have. They seem to be a well organised group however, and I’m open to learning more.
Quote what statistics to me you like, but I feel the need to say this: the average African is more likely to be exposed to or be a victim of crime and violence than the average American or European. Therefore, the average African is more exposed to the kind of aggressive behaviour that can flash into physical violence, is more likely to see this as ‘normal’, is more willing to use force and can switch over to violence faster. Life’s a little rougher out here, but feel free to argue the point.
Everywhere, Africa is constantly referred to as if it is one big country like the US, when it is a continent with many different countries, all with diverse languages, cultures and traditions - like Europe. The French would hardly like to be seen as much like the Polish, the Germans a lot like the Italians, and the Spaniards much like the Swiss just because they all occupy one general land mass. This ‘African wrestling’ and ‘African boxing’ is far too vague. If I told you I’m learning ‘European dance’ and have some ‘European food’ at home wouldn’t that be too vague? I’ve heard of Spanish Flamenco, Swiss Waltz, French Ballet - so I’m sure it’s possible to be more specific. Food-wise, is it Danish pastry, French toast, English muffins, Swedish Cardamom or German apple strudel? I doubt English pub cuisine, ‘European’ as it might be, is representative of ‘European food’ or ‘European cuisine’.
The other thing that I find, which has also come up in face-to-face discussions with black Americans, is the fascination with all things Zulu. What’s that about? No one makes a big deal out of the Zulu here in South Africa (except for the Zulu), and I actually live in the same country the Zulus live in. Does someone please want to enlighten me? Why the need to change your name to Chaka/Shaka Something or Something Zulu? There are lots of other respectable Zulu names one could use.
For the Americans that seem to harp on this deep connection with Africa (”The Motherland”… said with reverence), from where I’m sitting you’re black and American, not African. Please decide whether you desire to be spiritually in tune with Africa and honestly embrace black people in Africa (but please don’t start wearing some random African countries’ traditional garb or a Nelson Mandela shirt) by embracing a somewhat chequered historical legacy as your ancestral roots, accept the fact that you and most Africans will have nothing in common and can’t relate - or decide if you’re so much more sophisticated and educated than these poor uneducated black people in Africa and did so well for yourself when you do get here; but really, I’ve had enough of the hypocrisy.
Then there’s the ‘African and African Diaspora martial arts research’ I read so much about. I would like to invite these researchers to contact me or Nigel, we’re researchers too. Yet, how come none of the African combat research people have mailed us to ask about Africa and its combat legacy from our perspective, even those that know about us and are excited about Piper going public?
I wrote to three email addresses for a web site on apparently African-based martial arts, looking to open a dialogue. All three addresses bounced. See http://www.zujitsu.com, I don’t know how much Zulu content there is, still I’d like to talk and learn more if they can get their email up. I wrote to Zulu Kai and Mukhanda Enterprise, check on Google. I’d like to hear back from them too. All the same, I feel ambivalent about people using Zulu/Shaka/Africa references too lightly to give their schools some sort of African authenticity. And where’s this Afrika place that I see mentioned? To me it makes Africa seem a little more primitive somehow. Anyway, for the researchers out there, my email is lloyd@pipersystem.com.
All this makes me think it’s time that the Piper web site changed a little bit. Well, the front page anyway. That being said, I would like to see more credibility with regard to African martial arts on the net. More local voices and better web sites wouldn’t hurt. If you lack the skills or the infrastructure to set one up, drop me an email and I’ll assist you.
I would prefer to see less ‘Zulu everything’ online, and less stealing authenticity by using the name Shaka Zulu. It makes for a less authentic feeling from what I can gather. Would you take me more, or less, seriously if I changed my name to Bruce Lee?
These are some random thoughts with no major point, however they are my thoughts after a period of browsing the net today. I’ve found too much that (to me, as an African) seemed inauthentic.
[ Perhaps here I should make a distinction. In my view, African systems of combat are less martial 'arts' than means of violence. They're rougher and readier, more raw and physical. They have less flow, are perhaps cruder with more "I am going to f*** you up" in them, less about elegance than about effectiveness. They are not easy to document in that they have added emotional dimensions which need to be understood non-intellectually, and are less apologetic about what they exist for. When seen through the typical Western lens they don't seem to translate so well. ]
The ’secret arts’ secretiveness makes it seem like there’s something to hide. The need to impress upon the world that Africa was there first and we have lots of super duper martial arts and so on really harms the growth and exposure of these systems. Yes, I do believe Africans are more innately aggressive and experienced with raw violence, that African have been using sticks as weapons for a long long time, and Africa can still be a wild place - but let’s stop with the amateur hour Zulu nonsense. Let’s stop making it look like African martial arts practitioners and genuine researchers are bullsh*t artists.
Comments are invited. Please click the comments link that follows. Our thanks to those who have commented on previous blogs, they’ve provided inspiration for additional articles.
Lloyd
on 22 Dec 2006 at 4h57 1.Tom Furman said …
Lloyd. Solid piece of work on African Martial Arts. Continue to publish, organize, and educate. There are still plenty of arguments on Filipino Arts and they have been popular since the ’70’s over here.
I’m enjoying your block. Straight to the point.
–Tom Furman
on 22 Dec 2006 at 5h18 2.Cultural roots and authenticity / African martial arts « Jianghu :: liminal said …
[...] I had to smile wryly when I read Lloyd’s latest post on the Piper System blog. He’s annoyed about Americans trying to co-opt African names and traditions, and using them out of context. Why do I smile? Two reasons: [...]
on 22 Dec 2006 at 6h43 3.Blade1 said …
Outside of your group there doesn’t appear to be much of an internet presence by actual Africans, talking about real African “martial arts.”
The best thing to do is to just keep putting your opinions and perspective out there.
At the very least it might make it harder for the frauds to make things up out of thin air and present them as fact.
And maybe as you say the honest researchers out there can learn something from you and you something from them.
on 22 Dec 2006 at 9h53 4.Lloyd said …
Hi Tom
Thanks for the positive feedback. I have never seen what I’ve been doing as ‘African martial arts’, and this is my first foray into that territory, and my thoughts are likely to change and mature as time goes on. For now I’d like to encourage dialogue with other African arts researchers, and revisit this article in a short while once I have some feedback from others.
I am very curious about this, what are the common arguments still raging about the FMA today?
on 22 Dec 2006 at 10h05 5.Lloyd said …
Hi, we’re glad to have you reading our blog and posting comments. Your article in response to this recent blog is appreciated, it answers questions I was hoping to find answers for. Mushtaq Ali (The Traceless Warrior) is another who gave us some insight into the African connection and it’s importance to African-Americans.
I will definitely revisit this topic soon, thanks to your help.
on 22 Dec 2006 at 10h09 6.Lloyd said …
Hi Blade1. I know so little about central and north African combat, being a resident of southern Africa and having only visited southern African countries, however thank you for the encouragement. I believe you’re right when you say we should keep writing and putting the word out. I am keen on learning more and forming associations with other groups out there who are studying the same things we are - I believe there is a lot to be learned by sharing with other researchers. I wonder who will approach us first to begin the process?
on 23 Dec 2006 at 11h34 7.Jason said …
Quote “Outside of your group there doesn’t appear to be much of an internet presence by actual Africans, talking about real African “martial arts.””
Hi Blade.
You have hit the nail on the head. It comes down to the term, “martial Arts” just as you’ve put it in inverted commas. Most of the Africans doing real stick and knife are doing it as a way of life so to speak. This is normal everyday stuff. They do not attach the martial part to it and see no reason in making a big deal out of it.
on 23 Dec 2006 at 12h24 8.Jason said …
CALLING ALL POSERS
Nice one again Lloyd.
This is the kind of post that separates fact from fiction. Let’s just wait and see who steps up and who backs off. It’s time all these African posers and wanna-be blade masters get lifted out. So here we go guys, it’s time to step the F*ck up, or back the F*ck up. It’s time to…as we say down here, “Haal uit en wys”*.
Welcome to the real Africa
* Translates to “Take it out and show us”
on 23 Dec 2006 at 12h36 9.Lloyd said …
I can agree with what Jason says, Martial Arts is derived from the kind of things that African cultures do with regard to combat. A group of people develop combative methodologies and another group come along and codify it into a Martial ‘Art’. It’s what we’re doing with Piper. Maybe I can put down a few thoughts on the differences between Martial Arts and raw combatives as I’ve experienced it in an article in the near future.
on 23 Dec 2006 at 19h40 10.Tiel Aisha Ansari said …
“The other thing that I find, which has also come up in face-to-face discussions with black Americans, is the fascination with all things Zulu.”
It’s mostly ignorance (which is also what’s behind the point you made in the paragraph above). Most Americans know little or nothing about Africa. If they have heard something about Zulu culture, MA or what have you, this stands in for the entire rest of the continent. A generation ago, W. Africa was popular because of the book and movie “Roots” which featured a black American tracing his ancestry back to the Gambia region. These days Zulu is trendy. Next decade maybe Angola, who knows?
“from where I’m sitting you’re black and American, not African”
Yeah, I get it; when we lived in Tanzania in the 70s there were a few black Americans wandering through trying to get sort of spiritually naturalized… It’s sad. Being black American pretty much sucks. The alternative of imagining oneself to be African can be comforting– but it collapses rapidly when faced by the reality…
on 23 Dec 2006 at 23h42 11.Lloyd said …
Hi Tiel
Thank you for your comment. I actually read through your blog some time ago, I wish you success on the publication of your poetry anthology in the new year.
“Most Americans know little or nothing about Africa. If they have heard something about Zulu culture, MA or what have you, this stands in for the entire rest of the continent.” — In my experience, this is so true. And so annoying.
However, something that I have come to feel since receiving responses to my post is that I may have been a bit harsh, and a little premature in my judgement. I have been in truth humbled by some of the responses, and I’m led to see how the search for identity is a search for meaning and belonging - a search for hope even. I’m in the process of writing a follow-up, from a view point of greater understanding.
I’ve realised there’s something a little profound at work here, even though it may be misguided or turned into something of a fad, so it’s not something I want to just dismiss. I’m starting to see where some of this is coming from and learning a new respect, and want to reach out a friendly hand - though I do hope to also find the frauds and posers.
We need roots, we all need family. Maybe I can reach out by presenting a perspective on how to bridge the divide.
Thanks for your comment, please do contribute again.
Regards
Lloyd
on 25 Dec 2006 at 8h19 12.Mushtaq Ali said …
Hi Lloyd,
I do hope you keep this post, it’s important.
You have touched on some really important things here.
on 27 Dec 2006 at 18h00 13.kenneth house said …
Greetings,
I do not even know where to begin, as there are a number of warped opinions about Africans relative to what is African culture and its connections to Africans of its diaspora.
First of all, I am an American citizen of African descent. If Irish-Americans can still claim being Irish, despite the fact that amny, if not most, do not speak a lick of Irish nor, in all likelyhood, will never visit Ireland, than it is absurb to claim that I cannot claim African descent. It is even more absurb that one suggests that I identifiy not only with a factor (black) which cannot possibly define a people, anymore than “white” can, and which derives from another peoples’ designation upon me as a human being (neither you, the collective here who adhere to this warped sensibility nor anyone else has the right to define my ancestry, cultural affiliation or anything else-especially if you are not a part of my ancestral group-which takes more gaul than the universe allows), but with a color connotation which has no basis in reality. There can be no “black” culture sense the color black has no shared experiences to codify, nor any need for such, into a “culture.” To be black is to be so relative to what, to whom. Only someone (read people) with a cosmology or mythos, or cultural aesthetic which uses colors in this way, and, more specifically, which could view as black something diametrically differentiated from himself, could so view it. In otherwords, so-called “black” people could not possibly view themselves as such sense they were never “white” to begin with.
Let us cut to the chase. If you are implying that those (read “whites” as they have come to define THEMSELVES)who have so named “blacks” reserve the right to do so, then why stop there? Let’s go back to the original epithets, shall we? Why not the following: Nigger, Coon, Kaffir, Jungle Bunny, Spear Chucker, Jiggaboo, Blackie, Darkie, Tarbaby, Pickaninnie, Nappyhead, Fuzzywuzzy, my all time favorite-cursed son of Ham, Slave From Time immerorial, Monkey, Ape, Gorilla, Primitive, Heathen Witchdoctor, Tribesman? Sorry if I missed a few, as I haven’t watched National Geographic in a while.
Listen, if your language is not of the Niger-Congo, et al languages indigenous to the African continent (without having made “pit stops” eslewhere, as in the ludicrous notion that Afrikaans is as African as, say, the Kwa language family, for example, despite the fact that there cannot be an AFRIKAANS, without the Dutch, French et al European languages which preceded it), then it simply cannot be classified as African. South Afrikaan, maybe, African, hardly.
The martial arts contained in the Dundunba of the Mande speaking peoples of Guinea are real and beautiful. Prior to independence, people died while fighting this African fighting artform.
If you are claiming that such arts have no codification, then you do not know what you are talking about. If I am taught how to throw, how to step, how to strike, how to stop or evade a blow, associated concepts to back up the technical study, then that is codification. Mrengy is but one such artform. Dambe is but another. The Hausa, whose butchers guild invented, are not to be played with with this unarmed aspect of their ancient, indigenous combatives. They also have a hunter’s warriors society. These combatives were a part of their ancient military systems. They are not to be played with. If you think that you are better warriors, feel free to challenge one of them. Then you van tell me how uncodified, primitive and make believe such systems are.
We also study arts in this hemisphere which derive their origins from African combatives. Since the practioners of these arts, the experts in them, not you nor I, SAY that they derive from African martial arts, then they are in a better position then you or I to be able to make such assessments. Until any one here provides evidence to the contrary, you are just talking.
I do not know which persons of African descent you are claiming to be making a big deal out “Zulu” combatives, but no one with whom I am familar has viewed their combatives as anything more than one among many African fighting methods. And please be advised that knowing some Zulu cat down the street does not mean that you know everything Zulu. Not every African knows all there is about his culture, just as most French do not know about Savate.
I post more later…
on 27 Dec 2006 at 19h22 14.Jason said …
Finally someone has stepped up.
Nice post Kenneth.
It looks like the African post is doing it’s job on calling out the players and the posers. We do not know each other but from reading your post it seems your sincere and serious about Africa and it’s treasures. Sorry for generalising and painting everyone with a broad brush, but generally, and I am sad to say, that’s whats going on. Posers are ripping people off and giving the rest of us a bad name. What’s worse is that they mis-represent Africa and that just plain pissed us off. They are the ones that need to be weeded out. We need more of this interaction on the blog so keep em’ coming. What arts have you researched of studied?
Jason
on 27 Dec 2006 at 21h38 15.kenneth house said …
Lloyd,
Thanks for your reply. However, be careful about making any proclamations. You contacted my group in a way the was rather arrogant as I perceived it. If you have something to offer, simply step up and bust it out. The loud talkin’ through emotional outburst is NOT very African. It is a sign of immaturity and that the person doing it is not yet an adult.
I role with Hausa Gangi who do not take kindly to people claiming that what they do is not “sophisticated,” relative to what, and would want people to prove that. Given that a Gangi can still loose his life in challenging another Gangi guild member more skilled than he, it is not good to throw challenges. It is better that we calm down all the tough tony spittin’ an’ rap about this maturely. I also role with Haitians whose arts were used to defeat the French and which are still used now. And they don’t stick play. Machetes and knives and sticks are their throw down jons. Na mean? So let’s cool down on da thuggery. I live in Camden, New Jersey. You can’t tell me nothin’ ’bout be rolled on. You an’ my peeps, the Zulus, Xhosas, whoever, can’t tell me nothin’ bout bein’ rolled up on wit’ a roscoe (gun) shoved in ya face.
I am also gonna tell you this. Whether they are accurate, historically or not, some of them cats you callin’ out can rumble, armed or not. You should differentiate between discerning what is authentically African and believing that this Piper system you got is instant success agasinst whomever you claim to be calling out. Those are two different paradigms, and Piper and got nothing on 52, Bum Rush, Alto52, etc. If you wanna talk, talk. If you power trippin, then we gots no more rap.
I would also argue that what makes Piper “African” if it contains Malaysian martial components?
Let’s talk. But,If you wanna keep with the dissin’, then I’m out-we gots no more rap.
Kenneth
on 07 Jan 2007 at 12h24 16.kenneth house said …
You should also stop telling persons of African descent that they cannot be African. Since their roots did not begin here, and they did not become phenotypically as they are now while in America, and given that they have everything genetically, and many things culturally (foods, etc.), it is ludicrous to think otherwise.
And just so you know, being “black-American” only sucks relative to the white supremist origins of the concept of a “black-American” in the first place.
And why would I, as a person of African descent born in the Americas (which includes British Columbia all the way down to Aregntina) feel obligated to identify with a description imposed upon me by my enemy (white supremist America)?
on 09 Jan 2007 at 11h55 17.Bandile said …
Good point Kenneth you are of African descent but not African. Neglecting this point lead to the major problems that plauged African Americans, in Ghana, and the war in Liberia ( good lessons in history).
As an African I find it insulting when someone ursups my culture without understanding it and spins a racist slant on it and calls it real African.
I experienced this when I was in New York chatting with some black supremist who thought because I was Afrikan I would sympathise with their mindless hate speech.
Let us respect and honour our differences.
on 11 Jan 2007 at 9h40 18.Lloyd said …
KH: Lloyd, Thanks for your reply.
That was Jason, by the way.
KH: However, be careful about making any proclamations. You contacted my group in a way the was rather arrogant as I perceived it. If you have something to offer, simply step up and bust it out.
I did. This is your response.
KH: The loud talkin’ through emotional outburst is NOT very African.
You obviously have not been around a lot of blacks, man. Black people in Africa are LOUD. Here’s a question from me: What makes you such a judge of what’s ‘African’ and what’s not? Which part of Africa are you from now again?
KH: It is a sign of immaturity and that the person doing it is not yet an adult.
What proud, noble, humble, soft-spoken Africans have you been hanging with? You said step up and bust it out… I did.
I’m African, born and bred - those are credentials that seem to carry weight in your estimation. Am I being too American or something?
KH: I role with Hausa Gangi who do not take kindly to people claiming that what they do is not “sophisticated,” relative to what, and would want people to prove that. Given that a Gangi can still loose his life in challenging another Gangi guild member more skilled than he, it is not good to throw challenges.
When did I talk down to this group?
I know about the sophistication of African forms of combat, I also know about the primitive nature of African combat - and how appropriate that can be. But death matches?
KH: You an’ my peeps, the Zulus, Xhosas, whoever, can’t tell me nothin’ bout bein’ rolled up on wit’ a roscoe (gun) shoved in ya face.
You and I can talk about that. Been there.
KH: I am also gonna tell you this. Whether they are accurate, historically or not, some of them cats you callin’ out can rumble, armed or not. You should differentiate between discerning what is authentically African and believing that this Piper system you got is instant success agasinst whomever you claim to be calling out.
When did we make that claim?
We know lots of people who can rumble, but many of them can’t read or write good and therefore cannot document what they do in a way the rest of us can identify with. That’s what we did as a group, document and structure the elements of the method. However, if you read the web site you’ll see where we’re coming from.
KH: Those are two different paradigms, and Piper and got nothing on 52, Bum Rush, Alto52, etc. If you wanna talk, talk. If you power trippin, then we gots no more rap.
Most people don’t even believe in Jailhouse, many dispute that it exists. The proponents of those systems have done them a disservice by hiding them.
KH: I would also argue that what makes Piper “African” if it contains Malaysian martial components?
It developed in Africa, it was developed by Africans and it is practised in Africa. The culture assimilated new developments, they evolved. Would you prefer Africa did not adopt electricity because it’s Western? Are you one of those racial purity people? Africa has moved on man. Africa is NOT a MUSEUM, there for your personal connection to your roots.
KH: Let’s talk. But,If you wanna keep with the dissin’, then I’m out-we gots no more rap.
I asked a few straight-forward questions. Can we get answers instead of defensive posturing?
on 11 Jan 2007 at 9h56 19.Lloyd said …
Hi Kenneth
I’ve been offline for a while, I took a long break over the holiday season, I’ll be online more regularly soon and available to reply to emails.
KH: there are a number of warped opinions about Africans relative to what is African culture
I agree. I’ve met many clients who believed the oddest things about even developed parts of Africa before they got here and saw for themselves (i.e. lions in the streets, we live in tree houses, wear grass skirts) - more accurate information needs to be disseminated.
KH: If Irish-Americans can still claim being Irish, than it is absurb to claim that I cannot claim African descent
No, it is your right to claim African descent. I don’t believe that you can claim to be African, you are firmly American - that’s where you were born and raised. I’ve seen too much hypocrisy in the black ‘brothers’ that show up here from the US, being a superior (arrogant) American and next an ‘African Brother’ whenever the 3rd-worlders need to be shown who’s the man.
The black Americans I have met often have strong colour issues, and struggle with their black identity - and I can see from that that there are tensions within the American culture that we here in South Africa have worked out already. The road we walked down led to integration and acceptance, the road travelled in the US seems to be leading to division.
I wrote the article to say some simple things - not to be drawn into American black/white race politics.
KH: Let’s go back to the original epithets, shall we? Why not the following: Nigger, Coon, Kaffir, Jungle Bunny, Spear Chucker, Jiggaboo, Blackie, Darkie, Tarbaby, Pickaninnie, Nappyhead, Fuzzywuzzy, my all time favorite-cursed son of Ham, Slave From Time immerorial, Monkey, Ape, Gorilla, Primitive, Heathen Witchdoctor, Tribesman?
I’m black, I live in Africa. Here in my country, South Africa, we handled our colour issues. You have to let go of this, put it behind you, you need to stop hating. The Greatest Nation still seems to have a lot to learn about working together for a better future. We here in this country even use the terms ‘black’, ‘white’ and ‘coloured’ without issue or prejudice, where I’ve seen them raise hackles amongst black Americans.
KH: Listen, if your language is not of the Niger-Congo, et al languages indigenous to the African continent… then it simply cannot be classified as African.
Everything changes, evolves, integrates with new developments. Africa has changed. Much has moved on, for better or worse. I speak English, that’s my first language. The Afrikaners see themselves as African, interestingly enough, even be they white. The Africa of a the slave period is gone.
The Niger and the Congo are different countries, they have their own languages and culture - they are no more or less African than Namibia or Zimbabwe or South Africa. Africa is a rich continent with many nations - embrace diversity.
KH: The martial arts contained in the Dundunba of the Mande speaking peoples of Guinea are real and beautiful.
So write about it, post pictures. I invite you to write an article I’ll post on the blog and on the web site, with full credit and links to you. I know Africa has proud warrior and combative traditions, however the way African combat has been presented has made it difficult for the world to accept the introduction of them. We need to be sharper in our presentation and maybe the western world will be more open in its acceptance. So far, screaming that “African martial arts were here first” doesn’t seem to be working.
KH: If you are claiming that such arts have no codification, then you do not know what you are talking about. If I am taught how to throw, how to step, how to strike, how to stop or evade a blow, associated concepts to back up the technical study, then that is codification.
I’m not sure when I made that claim…?
KH: They are not to be played with. If you think that you are better warriors, feel free to challenge one of them. Then you van tell me how uncodified, primitive and make believe such systems are.
I’m not sure when I took a swipe at these cultures…?
KH: We also study arts in this hemisphere which derive their origins from African combatives. Since the practitioners of these arts, the experts in them, not you nor I, SAY that they derive from African martial arts, then they are in a better position then you or I to be able to make such assessments. Until any one here provides evidence to the contrary, you are just talking.
They SAY they are African-derived…? I can PROVE I am African. I know that African combat systems don’t do certificates and belt gradings - however there must be some form of description you can give with regards to the origins, development and current status of these systems of combat - along with some sources.
KH: And please be advised that knowing some Zulu cat down the street does not mean that you know everything Zulu. Not every African knows all there is about his culture, just as most French do not know about Savate.
I have experienced too much American pseudo-African culture. Being born in America and having an edjukayshun does not entitle black citizens of the US to speak for people in Africa.
KH: I post more later…
Please do, you are welcome to
on 18 Jan 2007 at 7h47 20.Thomas Lomax said …
Greetings, All. I am a friend of Kaya’s, and I’m also familiar with some of those who have commented here.
This is my first visit. Those who know me personally know it is not my habit to post in public forums. However, I must say I’m experiencing some mixed feelings regarding what I’ve read here.
At this time, my only comment is: we, as scholars and researchers, need to be circumspect about the words we use, or misuse. Language reflects clarity of thought, or lack thereof, and we should be very careful about the labels we put on things.
My ancestors were from Africa. I am African…PERIOD! They still speak to me from my altar.
And as for martial arts, we need to distinguish between African martial arts and an African DOING martial arts.
You can modify an Asian martial art all you want…change a few things, add, subtract, and it is STILL an Asian martial art, just more personalized.
What makes a thing African, or German, or whatever is the environment (culture, philosophy, etc…) that birthed it.
Now, of course, I’m speaking generally.
Regarding Piper as an African martial art and people of Europen descent born in Africa calling themselves African, or whatever, I really don’t want to address those topics using this type of medium. But, I think these issues can be settled satisfactorily with a thorough examination of each one’s respective DNA.
My two cents. Peace. — Thomas
on 18 Jan 2007 at 8h27 21.Jason said …
How are you doing Thomas.
Thank you for contributing to the forum. If i may ask which arts do you practice, African or otherwise.
Jason
on 18 Jan 2007 at 18h25 22.Bandile said …
Thomas that’s a really cool comments I generally agree with most of what you say.
My ancestors were from Africa. I am African…PERIOD! They still speak to me from my altar.
Ok, that is the identity you choose to take I honour and respect that.
Where in Africa were you born? Region, country ,city , street, number? What people?
And as for martial arts, we need to distinguish between African martial arts and an African DOING martial arts.
True
You can modify an Asian martial art all you want…change a few things, add, subtract, and it is STILL an Asian martial art, just more personalized.
True
What makes a thing African, or German, or whatever is the environment (culture, philosophy, etc…) that birthed it.
True
But, I think these issues can be settled satisfactorily with a thorough examination of each one’s respective DNA.
When we talk about DNA I recently took a test with my brother, u see we have slanty eyes in my family and I was wondering where they came from.
I though Khoi but hell I was so wrong ( Thanx to the damn heritage center for blowing up my bubble). It turns out that my mitochondrial DNA which is inherited from my mother was 15% Mardijker a group apparently from Jarkata.
Does that mean I can suddenly claim an Asian identity.Afro-Asian maybe I mean this woman was brought from Batavia to South Africa under shakles and ran away to join the locals.Hell no I am African!!
The suprising thing is that the only person in the group with the Khoi khoi genetic heritage was white and Afrikaans, now he was born in Africa and has a stronger claim to this place.
So I would be hesitant of making assumptions about based on appearances.
I mean a majority of African Americans have European x chromosomes which means all their male genes came from Europe.
What about North Africa, there are people who descended from the Vandals of Europe (Dark ages). Ok then since Moors conquered Spain,Portugal and India can those people be African?
I believe some people I have met who espouse to love Africa hate it a lot and only cling to it because it feeds their racist ideologies. The next thing they are going to come and try save Africa. This missionary ethic we don’t need. If they loved their African heritage they would take the time to find out what it was all about.
Having said that I know some Americans who are friends and who I have met in the States and in S.A who actually come to learn and embrace their heritage. I salute these people and show them much respect.
So man keep listening to your ancestor’s voices and honour them
Axe, Camagu, Salama
on 18 Jan 2007 at 20h07 23.Thomas Lomax said …
Jason, hello. I am a Guru in Pencak Silat Bukti Negara and Pencak Silat Kilat (Cliff Stewart) and a practitioner of Pencak Silat Sera(k). My exposure to African combatives (which includes the Diaspora) is limited to bits and pieces that others have shown me of Dambe, Borey, Aki, Capoeira, Knockin’ & Kickin’, and 52 Hand Blocks.
Bandile, hello. Your post is indicative of why I am reluctant to participate on internet forums. It is impossible for me to deduce the specific emotional tone of your words. Emoticons don’t transmit inflection.
If I were to judge you by the majority of Africans I’ve met here in the States, then I would be insulted by your arrogance and air of superiority. Why do so many native-born Africans feel they are better than those of us in the Americas descended from African slaves?
However, since I don’t know you, and can’t hear the tone of your voice, I will give you the benefit of the doubt and assume you are being sincere and respectful. In turn, I shall address you that way.
You said, “Where in Africa were you born? Region, country ,city , street, number? What people?”
I was born in the southern United States.
I’m assuming you are African-born-and-raised. Let me ask you, if you moved to England, had children, who married British spouses and then had children, who had children, would your great-grandchild be British or still African?
“When we talk about DNA I recently took a test with my brother, u see we have slanty eyes in my family and I was wondering where they came from…15% Mardijker a group apparently from Jarkata. Does that mean I can suddenly claim an Asian identity…”
Look, I could cut all this short and say that since human origins can be traced to Africa, then we are ALL Africans. Or, I could refer you to the research of Runoko Rashidi who documents the migration of ancient Africans to what is now called Asia. But, this is not something I care to further discuss. I’m simply amazed that Black folks in America not being African is a topic even being seriously discussed!
“So man keep listening to your ancestor’s voices and honour them.”
I intend to. You do the same.
Peace.
on 19 Jan 2007 at 2h00 24.Black said …
It is so obvious that the pro-piper posts on this blog
is a marketing ploy designed to create controversy to put Piper on the map in the States as an authentic African fighting system (which it is obviously not). It is also obvious that your posts were also designed to create controversy in hopes that it would attract the players (fighers, researchers, etc.)
of African and african-American fighting systems in the States so that we will post on your blog and in turn you collect the rich feeback which
would assist you in patching up the gaping holes in your hybrid fighting system which although you call African because its practiced in South
Africa, its contents, the majority of it is clearly derived from Filipino and Malaysian fighting systems as well as the South African fighting system
called “Form”. Many of us here in the States have been already aware for quite some time that Piper is
a hybrid-mix of JKD, Maphilindo, Pekiti-Tirsia, Doce Pares, Kali and Malay Silat posing as a South African Street fighting system. What, you didnt
know we knew? and you can defend it all you want. As you already know, there are many, especially JKD, Silat and Kalistas who are already aware of this. In the past, your attempt to put Piper on the map
failed miserably by one of your own proponents spiling the beans. It was clearly stated, just because you guys are running around in Cape Town practicing this hybrid art doesnt mean its a South African fighting
system. Only the non-fighting-not-well-
informed will be beguiled by your fraudulent propoganda. However, the majority in the know who practice authentic African fighting systems will
not practice Piper. Couldnt you pick a better name? How about one thats South African and not English. Piper sounds like a washed up wrestling icon (Roddy Piper). The name would have fit better if it was a fighting system utilizing an iron pipe as a weapon. Also, your research on African-Americans knowledge on African fighting systems is quite despicably
outdated (1960s). The statement that was made that most African-Americans are fixated soley on the fighting tactics of the Zulu tribe is not only inacurate and false but also shows how outdated your
knowledge is on the way African-americans view AFrican fighting systems. Just as outdated are the African-American movies and television programs yuu watch
in South Africa. Its obvious you have no clue. Even back in the Pan-Africanist movement in the States in the 60s there were african-american researchers who not only acquired a second passport to live in Africa but also travelled and lived in Afrfca extensively as well
as studied various African fighting systems. Also, for decades there are various African and African-American Study programs in the States whose african-american students and professors have lived and studied in Africa for years living african culture as well as learning african fighting systems. Where have you been? It is now 2007 and this is still being done
by researchers such as http://www.africawrites.com (African-American by the way) and many others which you should do more research on because I wont do that for you. You guys just popped off the map with no respect and no code. Even the streets have code. You guys
plan to visit the States with this attitude? Even in the streets any true playa knows you dont come up in somebodys hood poppin yang out the side of
your mouth and then expect to eat. Lets keep it real now. You guys wanna eat in the States. You talk bad about America but you are looking for the American dream just as much as Americans are. Which is why you are trying to get cred from your posts in the first place, but you are doing it in the wrong manner. A word to the wise, give respect where respect is due.
Lastly, being born and raised in South Africa doesnt make you an authority on African-fighting systems. There are a lot of Africans (not all..but a
lot) who come to America and are Christian or Muslim and dont practice or know true African culture or practice African fighting systems at all
because they say it is “Pagan” or “shirk”. So it is not only African-Americans who have issues but Africans and people of African descent all over who have issues not only because of colonialism but because of tribalism and the same ego and arrogance that exists on this blog…it is ego and arrogance that started this whole mess in the first place. I wouldnt even be surprised if you are a Christian. Nothing wrong
with that but Im just making a point, just because youre in Afrfca, doesnt mean you practice Africa…and if you are christian (and you know who you
are so stop perpetrating) you should have more respect for the descendants of the sons and daughters of Africa who were sold into Slavery. In case you didnt read myriads of human genome mapping data, Every human being on this planet descended from an African
male and female and not even you can change that. However, the problem still remains, cuz of ego, some of us still create division and still dont get along. However, there are those who do get along and Africans and African-Americans are exchanging information, living abroad and learning about each others cultures and fighting systems as we speak, thats old and
something weve been doing for quite some time, the only thing is youre just now finding out, why? its because youre too young anyway to know that. Young people always think they know everything. Give yourself about 20 more years and then you will seehow foolish your posts have been. Like using the violence (fueled by South Africas economic situation attributed to greedy corporations) in South Africa to give credibility to
Piper. That is in no way helping the situation. Obviously you are not a conscious brotha because youre so revved up about giving Piper cred that you use the very violence to give it credibility. This
will be my last post on this blog, I dont live on the internet. I have better things to do. I just felt I had to school you , and you dont need to know my name. But if you wanna know whats good for you,
take my advice. Slow down, listen and talk to old folk in the States “in the know” and you just might learn something. By the way, I am African-American and a son of Africa - The Mother. One more thing, Jailhouse, 52 us ´not the only thang we have, there are many others and they all dont need Piper to verify its
existence. Its an “African-American”-for da struggle OG thang, youngin, but you wouldnt know about that and has real elders (well above their 60s in age). How old is Piper, a few years old? Wheres the OGs, wheres the culture? Wheres the roots, wheres the code? You say evolved, but how can something so young evolve? Or is it just made up.
Peace,
and to the struggle,
and this post is protected by the X (Nzambi-Kalunga), the red, the black and the green and yellow
and you know the next line -
Peace
OG Playa
on 19 Jan 2007 at 9h07 25.Jason said …
Hi there guys. Hows things going out there?
There are a lot of valid points being thrown about on this blog. A lot of them that i agree with and a lot of them that i don’t. But we can’t expect everyone to have the same opinion can we. I won’t allow myself to get into the whole African debate thing because plain and simple….it’s just not my thing. Born in Africa,States, Japan, Never-never land does not determine your skill in combat. Some believe it does, and maybe i am wrong, but that’s my opinion. So after this post I will be trying my best to concentrate on just talking about things Martial arts and combat oriented, mainly African, Southern African because that’s what I know. I am not in the habit of popping off at the mouth about things I have limited knowledge on so i hope that’s cool with everybody.
I have said in one of my previous posts that no matter what anyone, anywhere says about Piper, It’s not going to change the way we are getting attacked on our streets. This is our reality. I know where it comes from, it’s history and evolution. I will say it just one more time, I practice Piper so that i can defend myself against my criminal, and I teach it to others in my community so they can do the same. I love Form Style and African stick Fighting as well so i will speak about these.
This is as far as I will go with this for now, hopefully for good. I would rather spend time typing about combat and trying to carry across what i know. Which brings me to my next point. I am currently busy with blog post about a stabbing of a family member which happened about three weeks ago. It will have a few pictures of the bandaged up wound because i only saw him after the hospital did their thing. Also i will be doing an intro to Form Style as is done in our reformatories, and try my best to explain how this spills into the streets. I will link the post to a few video clips of Form Style.
To tell you all the truth the interactions on the blog, be it anti Piper, pro Piper, of African or whatever have all been beneficial and it’s a shame that some people who have commented would not like to participate more. Constructive praise or critisism is always good. And interaction is never a bad thing so i ask them to reconsider.
I will stay posting.
Jason
on 19 Jan 2007 at 12h53 26.Bandile said …
Black wrote:
“Many of us here in the States have been already aware for quite some time that Piper is a hybrid-mix of JKD, Maphilindo, Pekiti-Tirsia, Doce Pares, Kali and Malay Silat posing as a South African Street fighting system”.
I just wonder how many guys in the Bo kaap and Cape flats know that. But they sure do know how to use a knife.
By the way what is Maphilindo?
on 19 Jan 2007 at 13h08 27.Bandile said …
Thomas, thanx for the reply. First thing I want to say is that I meant my comments with the utmost respect.
“Why do so many native-born Africans feel they are better than those of us in the Americas descended from African slaves?”
A point of correction: not all African Americans descended from slaves.
The reason why most African born people are reluctant to mix with African Americans is fear, not superiority. When I was in NY I felt the same fear, especially in Harlem. I had nothing in common with the African Americans.
Just antagonism, one guy accused me of selling his ancestors to slavery and called me one of “dem Africans”. I actually found the people I got along with and who I had something in common with were Latino.
I’m assuming you are African-born-and-raised. Let me ask you, if you moved to England, had children, who married British spouses and then had children, who had children, would your great-grandchild be British or still African?
My great grandson would be African-descended, not African.
Look, I could cut all this short and say that since human origins can be traced to Africa, then we are ALL Africans.
EVEN THE WHITE PEOPLE!!! SCANDAL lol.
Or, I could refer you to the research of Runoko Rashidi who documents the migration of ancient Africans to what is now called Asia. But, this is not something I care to further discuss. I’m simply amazed that Black folks in America not being African is a topic even being seriously discussed!
Well for me it is worth discussing because African identity is up for discussion now. I mean even in Africa we are grappling with what being African means, even though we are native born. So when an American or British person says they are African what do they mean?
I like talking to you man. Can I get your email from Lloyd? I believe I will learn more.
on 19 Jan 2007 at 13h49 28.Lloyd said …
Hello Thomas
Thank you for posting here. In response to your comments (marked with ‘==’):
== I must say I’m experiencing some mixed feelings regarding what I’ve read here. ==
My feelings in response to what I learned prompted me to write here on my blog. Not all of us share the same views, and the people I know don’t share the views of of black Americans.
== My ancestors were from Africa. I am African…PERIOD! They still speak to me from my altar. ==
You are African descended, you can claim an African association, however, you are 12th generation American now. Black Americans who arrive in Africa don’t realise just how “American” they are, and how much they have in common with white Americans, since they share a common American culture. There is a typical “American-ness” inherent in you which is by no means African. We don’t see an African when we see black Americans, we see an American.
If I go and knock on Germany’s door or Indonesia’s door and tell them to open up because I’m “German” or “Indonesian” they wouldn’t hesitate to let me in, right?
I understand your desire to belong, and to want a spiritual and ancestral home, and that’s ok. The way many Americans have approached the topic however, leaves much to be desired.
== Regarding Piper as an African martial art ==
Seeing that it was created by and is practised by Africans in Africa?
== and people of Europen descent born in Africa calling themselves African ==
They are recognised in our country as African, they are born here and raised on African soil. They are African, of European descent. You are American, of indeterminate African descent. If you can provide us with a family name, a village, a province or even a whole country to use as a reference we might gain some insight into where you’re from.
Who are YOU to decide who is African in Africa?
== I think these issues can be settled satisfactorily with a thorough examination of each one’s respective DNA ==
I have German blood in my family, and apparently Indonesian blood. Does that disqualify me from claiming African heritage? Were we supposed to remain pure and black and unchanging just so modern day Americans could give us a stamp of approval before they came to claim their heritage? Lose the romantic concept of Africa that seems to be shared amongst blacks in America.
Africa is NOT a museum. It lives, it changes, it adapts and evolves like any other culture. Africa hasn’t remained stuck 400 years in the past, we have moved on too.
on 19 Jan 2007 at 13h52 29.Bandile said …
To Black, well maybe you’ll get this, brother.
Ubuni bakho abunanto yokwenza nalapha e Africa ngokuba wena uswele ingqiqo. Thina apha siyazi ukuba nalahleka nabhaciswa ezizweni, siva usizi ngalonto kodwa ke lonto ayitsho ukuba ungavela ufune ukusifakela le mbanxo yakho. Uve ngabani ukuba asizazi thina.
Piper was never a martial arts, broer; we don’t have South African martial arts, only fighting systems and methods of committing violence. Nigel will tell you more about that. I am no expert.
I am also getting tired of this who is African talk. I’d rather talk about combat arts. So my next post is about Induku and Cape Knife and where they meet. I still say this no matter what people say on the net (so called ‘masters’), Induku is not a stick dance.
I could write something about how Americans behaved in Ghana and my favorite, Liberia, and you’ll see why I am suspicious of American intentions about Africa.
But not here, this is for people who are interested in Piper and African martial arts of any form.
Tell you what. Send me an email to gorha2002@yahoo.co.uk and you can try school or scold me
on 19 Jan 2007 at 14h09 30.Bandile said …
Hi Man
“this post is protected by the X (Nzambi-Kalunga), the red, the black and the green and yellow and you know the next line.”
I assume you are an older man and an elder in your community. I will try and be respectful in voicing my complaint.
See how you prove my point, not all Africans are Kikongo (Central Africa) or Yoruba (West Africa). We don’t all practice Vodun.
If this is what you mean by being conscious then leave me in my sweet slumber.
Let me then school you sir
East Africans and Southern Africans tend towards monotheism.
Engai - Masai
Qamata - Xhosa
Nkulunkulu - Northern Nguni
Modimo - Sotho
Tsiqua - Khoi san
Mwari - Shona
on 19 Jan 2007 at 14h17 31.Lloyd said …
I have come to recognise this sensitivity amongst black Americans, and I am beginning to relate to it.
I doubt there is a sense of superiority from our side. It may be that we disagree with your assertions of being ‘African’ when you are so ‘American’ instead. Be who you are, rather than what you’re not. There is a hesitance to associate with your culture, a lack of common ground leading to difficulty relating. The people I speak to feel Americans are superior and arrogant in their demeanour, it’s a common feeling. No insult is meant by this, this is merely honest observation.
On the topic of slavery, Dr Francois Verster at the National Archives in Cape Town has original slave registers, Nigel has handled some that date from 1669. My family name appears in a record dated March 1689. My family on my father’s side were slaves who took their owner’s name. Maybe we have more in common than we realise?
== If I were to judge you by the majority of Africans I’ve met here in the States, then I would be insulted by your arrogance and air of superiority. Why do so many native-born Africans feel they are better than those of us in the Americas descended from African slaves? ==
on 19 Jan 2007 at 16h16 32.Nigel said …
Hi, uh, ‘Black’
Thanks for your strong advice and for offering us a deeper insight into African martial arts as practised in the U.S.
I must, however, clarify a few misguided points re Piper.
First off, Piper or the Piper System, was created specifically for (S.A) martial artists to better understand our criminals; the way they move, the way they think, the way they operate.
At no point did I refer to it as an African martial art. I think SURVIVAL was far more important to me at the time. If JKD, Silat, FMA, Inosanto’s Maphilindo Silat, Doce Pares & Kali was available to us on the Cape Flats at THAT time, then I would not have created Piper.
You see, these amazing arts were never taught on the Cape Flats, nor was there any footage available. Sadly, I learned about these systems after the Piper System was created, along with knowledge of all the various (authentic) African arts taught in your country as well.
Also, I feel that it is very important for people to read posts & articles more carefully before passing judgement, as since this is a Piper website, info on its history & application is found here.
Secondly, Piper is a creation of Nigel February, a method practised by Lloyd & Jason, that simulates a knife method used in our prisons & on our streets. It doesnt & cannot have the elders you speak of…yet! Its origins i are not African or Indonesian, its CRIMINAL! That’s why it exists.
I never expected it to be seen in the same light as other African arts, as it pays homage to no-one, has no pure philosophy or honourable traditions. Piper is simply just a S.A. study on violence. PERIOD. And b.t.w, English is the official language in S.A, the first of 11 official languages…
Kind regards
Nigel
on 19 Jan 2007 at 21h46 33.Blade1 said …
I think there could be much of value in whatever combat methods the older African-American generations passed down. Might be that they can show a snap shot of Africa at a particular place and time. Material that maybe eventually disappeared from Africa proper.
But the politics involved, the hatred sometimes spewed out, and the seeming unwillingness to share or dialog…makes it hard for anyone who is sincerely curious and looking to find out more.
on 20 Jan 2007 at 13h50 34.Lloyd said …
Hi Blade1
Reading your comment I believe that what you say may well be true. The politics involved, the secret nature, the desire to hide knowledge in the dark is causing the flower of knowledge to die. Just see how African martial arts have failed to blossom, not even gaining a mention in any mainstream publications.
There has been a lot of negativity, I do feel it is time to share and speak about Africa’s fighting traditions. We can only wait and see how others respond - perhaps they will see how their secrecy and anger are harming the growth of what would be a potent legacy.
on 21 Jan 2007 at 19h19 35.Kaya said …
hello all. this dialogue has progreesed or not progreesed exactly as i have said it would. most people that have made comments here i consider as friends. i think the arrogance of both sides of the argument in thinking that everything one says is absolutley correct shows big ego issues. on both sides of the argument there have been very valid points and just because you made a valid point one place doesnt mean you didnt step on your dick in another. i am not an enlightened being, but everyone speaking in absolutes is showing how un enlightened we all are. i know almost all the parties in this argument, even the ones that are hiding “Black”- i can recognize that pattern of thought anywhere. you all are intelligent knowledgable men of color, black, brown, colored, whatever and i know we are all aware of the struggle we face as a people. i ask of you to find the common ground stop saying your opinions as if they are fact. shit like this takes relationship to be worked out. i will be doing my best to get nigel to the states by june. most of you will meet then. stop the armchair quarterbacking. see you brothers soon. peace and blessings
on 23 Jan 2007 at 6h53 36.Daniel Marks said …
“even the ones that are hiding “Black”- i can recognize that pattern of thought anywhere”
My Brother my heart aches right now that you would think that I would hide behind content and not leave my name as if I’m afraid to speak on it god. Emphatically Non cipher… I stand on the square with mines even with my dick in my hand. If you felt that
Strongly why not call me? Yeah I Read the post wanted strongly to respond, but I held back as not wanting to be the first (to respond from my emotional sit)… I weigh this on the scale. I was unbalanced so not to respond in-kind I stepped off the square.
Cause the comments by Lloyd to me was way out of line and full of gasoline…
Nothing but fire son. If you set it what did you think that we would do?
He called us out, No body email me to discuss what I know don’t know or how I feel.
Yet all lump up in the mix like I got a problem. I’m not looking for home, nor do I have some deep longing for what was stolen, raped and plundered. Trust me on this, I’m more than aware, but Kaya what’s the deal? I’ve never bit my tongue god never.
Do I know Black yes I do. Did I post as Black HELL NAH. When I’m ready to talk I drop my name Daniel Marks. So my problem with the post is the misconception of who we are and what we are supposed to feel questioning our Sovern right, and let the truth be told he did make some good points. But Oil and Water don’t mix…
So next time god Holler at your boy before you call his character into question, you don’t have to agree with my reasoning or stand on my square. Like I told I’m raising Noble men, and all I got is my word. So when we you call me before the council speak my name, and I have to answer you, and let there be no doubt that I stand on my Square…
Equality
on 23 Jan 2007 at 8h41 37.Lloyd said …
Lloyd wrote:
“I believe I may well end up deleting this post, for the reasons that it may be controversial in some of the views I will express, and that I may want to go back and do more research.”
I have learned a lot from all the responses, Black included.
Please refer to the quote above. I have gone back and am doing some more homework. I’ve taken on board all the knowledge that was passed along by contributors, and if you look at the newest article I wrote some of that new perspective should become apparent. I also feel that my views will change once again, in the light of further knowledge.
Daniel, thank you for saying that I have made some good points, as have others. We do share a common heritage and a common experience - let me be the first to state that we can work together as martial artists striving for common goals.
Where I can promote (African) martial arts and a co-operation between us let me do that. I have a new response from Fahness about his martial experience, it’s short but interesting to see his journey. I hope I can persuade him to write more on the subject. As might you all.
Our differences need not set us apart, as we have much in common, and much to share with each other.
Let’s not hide what we have learned in the martial arts. I want to win the support and respect of martial artists the world over, the way the Asian systems and modern Western systems have. I let Black’s comment stand, unedited. As have all of your comments. Free speech - it’s a right.
Regards
Lloyd
on 04 Feb 2008 at 14h12 38.Gerhard said …
I chanced upon your website while doing research on Shaka for a story i’m writing. Just so you guys who take the name Shaka for yourselves may know, Shaka is an insult. His real name was Sigidi. The name Shaka was given him because he was an illegitimate child and in those days some people believed that the iShaka beetle could cause womans bellies to swell. So, when his mother, Nandi, became pregnant people said the the beetle made her sick.
thus, everyone that referred to him as Shaka was insulting him.
So…
on 26 Nov 2008 at 19h44 39.Lordornadow said …
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